The Science of Optimal Experience: Understanding Flow with Orin Davis

The latest podcast episode covers Flow with Dr. Orin Davis.

Listen to the podcast on Spotify, Apple, PocketCasts or YouTube.

Here’s some excerpts from the podcast:

Ariel (04:22):

Okay, and the flow experience, there’s a range of activities people could be doing. So some of them are more cognitive, some of them are more physical. Is it really the same experience in all these cases that they feel the same way, even in one way when they’re thinking very deeply and one way when they’re not thinking at all, for example?

Orin (4:38):

I mean, so on the one hand, like, there’s no way to know. mean, but then again, do we know, like, what do we know about any two people’s experiences? You know, like you love eating pizza, I love eating pizza. Is it the same love? Is it the same experience eating pizza? So it’s a similar thing. Like, when we’re talking about flow, we have found that at least in the limited way that we’re assessing flow, whether it’s qualitative or quantitative, we’re seeing that people make similar statements about it. And we find that when we give them quantitative measures about it, they rate the activities the same way if they’re experiencing flow. It’s a bit of a circular argument. So I want to acknowledge that. I am a scientist after all.

But nonetheless, yes, it would seem that flow is independent of the activity as long as the way you feel about that activity is conducive to a flow experience, as long as you can do it auto-telically. So we don’t find a lot of people experiencing flow while eating, for example. That doesn’t mean you can’t. But it means that probably if you’re having a full experience while eating, you probably know a lot about food, or you’re probably learning a lot about food, or you’re probably making a very strong sensory experience out of it, You’re not just casually munching on a bag of chips.

Ariel (22:24):

This aspect of doing something for its own sake, seems that’s a really important aspect in so many areas. For startups, often investors will say they want a founder who’s just really dedicated to doing it and not that they just want to make money, because they find that they do a better job that way. So why do you think that’s so important, that aspect of just for its own sake and that otherwise you don’t actually accomplish as much?

Orin (22:48):

Because I think that the people who do that they put in the discretionary effort you put in more effort When you want to be doing something for its own sake.

Incidentally, you brought up the idea of this in business. I actually find that this even gets abused in business. I actually point out that sometimes it’s a red flag when companies are saying they want somebody who’s passionate about it because it means they’re probably going to get more work out of that person for the same amount of money.

Ariel (23:14):

Right, I mean for employees and founders, it’s a little different. Founders are expected to work like crazy...

Orin (23:21):

Founders aren’t expected to work like crazy, they just have to to get it done. Look, it would be ideal to be in a world where founders could also have a good level of work-life balance. They just often cannot, because they often cannot afford financially to bring in the level of help that they would need to have an appropriate work-life balance.

Now that may very well be a bad thing… For example, I know a therapist, when you ask him what he does, he says, I help reintroduce founders to their families. He makes a living that way. Now I’m not saying that’s not an honest living on his part. [But] societal progress should not be coming at the expense of people estranging themselves from those whom they love!